Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

Post by Statistical Mechanic »

been-there wrote:What a complete retard. . . . Holy moly. What an arrogant but idiotic pillock.
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theblackrabbitofinlé
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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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Heinrich Hovis wrote:He denied not only all gassing at Auschwitz (see page 3) but also gassing at the Aktion Reinhard camps (page 2):
From the Judgment, 8:1
8.1 The threshold question is whether Irving has denied the Holocaust and, if so, in what terms and how comprehensively? Irving has at no time sought to controvert the following facts:

(a)that the Nazis established concentration (as opposed to extermination) camps throughout their territories;

(b)that from about June 1941 when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union many thousands of Jews and others in the East were shot and killed by Nazi soldiers;

(c)that from the end of 1941 onwards thousands of Jews were killed by gassing in the Reinhard death camps.

http://www.hdot.org/en/trial/judgement/08-2.html
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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Statistical Mechanic wrote:Like people who ridicule Father Desbois's findings.
With time and experience, we’ve found that the reports to Berlin were encoded under the cover of an innocent daily meteorological forecast : The number of clouds stood for the number of graves and the amount of rain indicated the number of victims.

- Father Desbois
http://www.targumshlishi.org/fatherdesb ... rticle.pdf
How could anyone be so heartless as to ridicule that finding.
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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been-there wrote:
Heinrich Hovis wrote:Another crucial point about Bloxham that would also surprise BT is that he rejects the claim that the Holocaust was 'unique'. This rather explodes BT's implied fantasy about Holocaust historiography being enslaved to a narrative of unique Jewish suffering in history, that the Jews are depicted as special because of the Holocaust.
Good for him. I am happy to hear it. It is obviously not unique nor special, but the fact remains that we allow our children to be intimidated and conditioned into believing this is still an ongoing reality perpetrated by politically motivated Jewish groups world-wide.
But I am happy to hear that the higher realms of academia and education are moving in the right direction on this.
I would like to see your evidence that "we allow our children to be intimidated and conditioned into believing this".
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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been-there wrote:......What a complete retard. ...... you moron? .......Holy moly. What an arrogant but idiotic pillock.
Been-there, you are such a hypocrite.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Statistical Mechanic
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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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theblackrabbitofinlé wrote:
Statistical Mechanic wrote:Like people who ridicule Father Desbois's findings.
With time and experience, we’ve found that the reports to Berlin were encoded under the cover of an innocent daily meteorological forecast : The number of clouds stood for the number of graves and the amount of rain indicated the number of victims.

- Father Desbois
http://www.targumshlishi.org/fatherdesb ... rticle.pdf
How could anyone be so heartless as to ridicule that finding.
That does seem far-fetched! My point, however, is that denial of the mobile killing operations directed against Jews in the East, with a death toll over one million, is denial of a significant part of the Holocaust; like the genocide, which comprised a variety of killing methods, denial is not restricted to the gas chambers alone - and the way Desbois has become a magnet for deniers - "the frog priest" (http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 5&start=20) - shows this. The harping you guys do on "6 million" confirms this point, by the way, because gas chamber murders in the death camps will get only to just over half the total death toll in the overall genocide (Hilberg, to take just one example, estimated 2.6 million deaths in Auschwitz, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and that other camp whose name is so hard to recall; 0.3 million in the camps of Transnistria; 0.8m in the ghettos; and 1.4m in the area of the mobile killing squads).
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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The "apostasy" of Dr Christian Lindtner - with his specific citation of Curilla's "admirable research" proving mass murder of Jews by "by various units of German police etc." as one reason for his conclusion 'that Holocaust revisionism, or denial, is simply irresponsible CHUTZPAH" - is another example why been-there's position on this issue is untenable.

Why would someone described by Jurgen Graf as a "Danish revisionist" eventually cite "undeniable" evidence for open-air shootings in the East as partly the impetus for his change in views if his earlier views had not included denial of these murders? Why would Jurgen Graf begin his excoriation of Dr Lindtner with a focus on the police unit murders of Jews if these murders were not a strand of revisionism? Why would Jurgen Graf write, in desperate response to Lindtner's apostasy, that scholars haven't adduced "a shred of evidence for the large-scale massacres claimed by Soviet propagandists, Jewish and German Holocaust historians and Danish Sanskrit scholars" if denial of these murders were not a important to revisionists? Indeed, why would Jurgen Graf draw the fanciful conclusion that "So the report from 7 October 1941, which mentions an imaginary slaughter, is a fraud. This means that all other Einsatzgruppen reports are equally suspect from the beginning" and that it is proven "that the shootings committed by the Einsatzgruppen, the Ordnungspolizei and the SS in no way possessed the scope ascribed to them by the court historians" if Graf were not advocating denial of the 1+ million murders of Jews in the East? http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/ ... ionism.php

Clearly, in the mind of Jurgen Graf, whom I take to be a revisionist and to know more about denial than been-there, for someone to accept the mass extermination of the Jews in the East at the hands of the SS-Einsatzgruppen, police battalions, Waffen-SS, and HSSPFs runs so contrary to revisionism that such apostasy calls for a strong rebuttal - a rebuttal in which Jurgen Graf charges Dr Lindtnder with "moral and intellectual bankruptcy" in part for the effrontery of accepting evidence of the mass murder of Jews in the East.

Suffice to add this from Dr Lindtner's reply to Graf's incandescent outrage over Lindtner's belatedly having come to grips with the evidence, via the work of Curilla and others:
. . . most of my research depends on the scientific work produced by German scholars such as Wolfgang Curilla, Krausnick & Wilhelm (1981), and many others (see my Bibliography for details). . . . JG admits that he has not read some of these books. Nevertheless, JG does not hesitate to condemn them as the "works of dogmatic and bigoted court historians", who violate "every principle of scientific historiography", etc.

This is totally unfair. Curilla and others base their research on contemporary German police reports, contemporary diaries etc., and on an enormous amount of German witnesses, who were present and who took part in the crimes etc. They deal with these documents in a critical fashion, as one should. In the opinion of JG, however, all this "evidence for the Holocaust was fabricated by West German justice."

. . . [T[he historical context [includes] numerous similar events in the second half of 1941: the murder of the Jews of Lubny in October, the children of Bjelaja-Zerkow in August, the naked women of Libau in December etc. etc. The work of an Italian scholar enables us to follow in the bloody tracks of the German police, day by day, from one place to another, with the purpose of making the land "free from Jews". The proof is largely provided by their own reports (http://www.ordnungspolizei.org/), occasionally confirmed by the independent evidence of local witnesses, in rare cases even photographs. . . .

Hans Frank and many, many others also refer to the shooting of Jews in this period (see e.g. Dieter Schenk, Der Lemberger Professorenmord und der Holocaust in Ostgalizien, passim).

In spite of all this, JG claims that there is no German documentation for the murder of Jewish women and children. But, in truth, there are hundreds of documents. Within easy reach is the report of Karl Jäger, 1 December 1941. See the recent book by Wolfram Wette: Karl Jäger. Mörder der litauischen Juden, Frankfurt a. M. 2011. The systematic murder of Jewish men, women and children in Lithuania started already in July 1941. By 1 December the toll of victims had reached 137.346. Jäger, commander of Einsatzkommando 3 (EG A) wrote:

"Ich kann heute feststellen, dass das Ziel, das Judenproblem für Litauen zu lösen, von EK. 3 erreicht worden ist. In Litauen gibt es keine Juden mehr, ausser den Arbeitsjuden incl. ihrer Familien,...". (Wette, op. cit. p. 243).

Jäger committed suicide in his cell in 1959. He did not deny the crimes in Lithuania, only his own personal responsibility. He put the blame on one of his subordinates, Joachim Hamann, whose name has now become insolubly associated with the notoriously efficient "Rollkommando Hamann". Hamann, an ardent antisemite, took his own life in July 1945. In 1990, to be sure, Professor Robert Faurisson, made a feeble attempt to question Jäger´s report (Ecrits revisionnistes, III, p. 1028): According to Faurisson, it reported the execution of "plusieurs centaines de milliers de juifs " - which is not the case - and "les sources dont il s´inspire sont inconnues" - which is also not the case (see Wette, op. cit., passim). Faurisson moreover refers to the standard work on the Einsatzgruppen of Krausnick and Wilhelm from 1981. He tells us that it contains 688 pages, which is true (and irrelevant here), but that "les auteurs ne produisent un ordre ou un plan d´extermination des juifs soviétiques" - which is a gross distortion (op. cit., p. 1028). Typically, on the basis of a few insignificant errors, the value of the work of these two eminent German scholars as a whole is flatly rejected (op. cit.,p. 1029). . . .

To sum up: Jürgen Graf´s "letter of contempt" confirms what I have already concluded above about the method of deniers: The trick is simply to ignore or distort the evidence available. You slander scholars who stick to the available evidence and to the historical context. Compared to a giant like Hilberg, who, like all scholars, made errors, JG turns out to be a dwarf. So it seems fair to conclude, as I did, that "Denial is Chutzpah".

What about Mr Graf himself? Graf has a rare command of many languages, to my ear he even speaks Danish admirably well. He is a prolific writer and translator. He fights for his beliefs. As such, he probably deserves credit for having removed many popular misconceptions about the Holocaust. It is a sad truth that competent scholars, fearing public exposure, perhaps, often fail to take steps to correct popular misconceptions that flourish in the media. . With all his abilities, it is a great pity that Graf has little or no training as a scholar. For serious scholarship he only has contempt, as a dilettant often has.

Most of all, however, JG reminds us of a Christian fundamentalist. No rational argument will persuade such Biblical fundamentalists to admit that the earth is not in the center of the universe, or that Jesus is not sitting up there on a cloud just waiting for the right moment to fly down followed by his apostles to take revenge. It is, perhaps, for that reason, that JG concludes his letter of contempt by confessing to the world that he does not endorse my humble views about the Buddhist and Hellenistic origins of early Christianity.
Sorry, been-there's gambit is disproved over and over by what he - selectively - ignores - and by his own dishonesty about denial and what constitutes the claims of revisionism.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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In particular, I think that historians of religion can learn much from the study of Holocaust revisionism. Clearly, ‘the Jewish Holocaust Story’ has become a religious movement, with popes, priests, apostles, prophets, institutions, rituals, ceremonies, myths, holy days of remembrance, dogmas, bans, persecutions, and inquisitions! We know much more about the genesis of this new religion than we know about the genesis and early history of other world religions that appeal to personal faith, rather than to reason. In the long run, Holocaust revisionism may, if I am not mistaken, have its greatest value in the contributions it can render to the scientific study of the history of the three religions of Abraham. The careful documentation provided by Dr. Faurisson, now collected in the four volumes of the privately printed Écrits révisionnistes, 1999, covering the period from 1974-1998, will then prove to be a mine of precious scholarly information from many points of view.
- (Classic) Christian Lindtner

Now the man can't seem to look anyone in the eye.

We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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Lindtner himself was clearly not my point, but thanks for the trivial tangent, as always.
"the Germans had ample justifiable cause to oppose a minority within their society who worked AGAINST their county's interests" -- been-there, 24 April 2014

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Re: Forensic Psychiatry and the "Holocaust Syndrome"

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Statistical Mechanic wrote:
With time and experience, we’ve found that the reports to Berlin were encoded under the cover of an innocent daily meteorological forecast : The number of clouds stood for the number of graves and the amount of rain indicated the number of victims.

- Father Desbois
http://www.targumshlishi.org/fatherdesb ... rticle.pdf
That does seem far-fetched!
Steady SM, you're flirting with Holocaust denial-lite there.
Statistical Mechanic wrote:My point, however, is that denial of the mobile killing operations directed against Jews in the East, with a death toll over one million, is denial of a significant part of the Holocaust; like the genocide, which comprised a variety of killing methods, denial is not restricted to the gas chambers alone - and the way Desbois has become a magnet for deniers - "the frog priest" (http://rodoh.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... 5&start=20) - shows this. The harping you guys do on "6 million" confirms this point, by the way, because gas chamber murders in the death camps will get only to just over half the total death toll in the overall genocide (Hilberg, to take just one example, estimated 2.6 million deaths in Auschwitz, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, Majdanek and that other camp whose name is so hard to recall; 0.3 million in the camps of Transnistria; 0.8m in the ghettos; and 1.4m in the area of the mobile killing squads).
Strange, that you have so far avoided like the plague, the chance to "debunk" the "denier" thread "the worst Holocaust atrocity in Russia"
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

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