How the Nazis are to be judged

[Bernard]

On the topic of the White Rose - from an interview with Sophie's sister Elizabeth:

Her boyfriend Fritz's patriotism turned sour on the eastern front. He was also a survivor of the hell of Stalingrad and, unbeknown at the time to Elisabeth, was providing information from 1942 onwards to Sophie and her White Rose comrades about the terrible things being done in Germany's name.
Elisabeth went on: 'In the letters home to Sophie he wrote about how horrified he was at the shooting of Jews. Then there was the architect Manfred Eickemeyer who provided Hans with use of studio in Munich while he was in Poland. Eickmeyer told him about the executions of Jews and the Polish intelligentsia. I knew that from both Hans and Sophie.'

Nothing there about homicidal gas chambers. Did Fritz or Eickmeyer actually write about 'Jews'? Or is this like the Willy Peter Reese deliberate distortion? I am genuinely asking
Anyway, no gassings, so another strawman argument.
Nobody is denying that terrible things were done during Operation Barbarossa.

I am becoming more convinced that what will be required to uncondition people such as Bernard and Cerdic is therapy and/or psychiatric help and a course in critical thinking

The issue of the White Rose is not about gas chambers or even about Einsatzgruppen killings, which are both confirmed by unopposed testimony, and documents. Cerdic brought up the White Rose, the Scholls and your hero, Roland Freisler, because the topic of Nazi courts and justice is yet another reflection of the brutality of the Nazi regime.

Is reading comprehension an issue for you, been-there? Feel free to PM me before you post and I will advise you to rewrite your thoughts if you've completely misconstrued.

BTW, don't bother to slobber your typical tu quogue about some Southern lynch mob in the 1890s. that would be too funny We are talking about the moral mandate of Roland Freisler and how that speaks to the legacy of Nazi Germany.

[Cerdic]

Can one imagine what a shameful place Germany would be without the Scholls and the White Rose? The White Rose are the proof of the lie of revisionism. In the face of death and torture there are inevitably Sophie Scholls to represent principle. Where are the SS heroes who faced up to Allied oppression and told the truth about those transit camps? This will be lost on fools like been -there, won't it Cerdic.

Exactly, Bernard.

Her boyfriend Fritz's patriotism turned sour on the eastern front. He was also a survivor of the hell of Stalingrad and, unbeknown at the time to Elisabeth, was providing information from 1942 onwards to Sophie and her White Rose comrades about the terrible things being done in Germany's name.
Elisabeth went on: 'In the letters home to Sophie he wrote about how horrified he was at the shooting of Jews. Then there was the architect Manfred Eickemeyer who provided Hans with use of studio in Munich while he was in Poland. Eickmeyer told him about the executions of Jews and the Polish intelligentsia. I knew that from both Hans and Sophie.'

Nothing there about homicidal gas chambers. Did Fritz or Eickmeyer actually write about 'Jews'? Or is this like the Willy Peter Reese deliberate distortion? I am genuinely asking
Anyway, no gassings, so another strawman argument.
Nobody is denying that terrible things were done during Operation Barbarossa.

I am becoming more convinced that what will be required to uncondition people such as Bernard and Cerdic is therapy and/or psychiatric help and a course in critical thinking

Uh, been-there, only about half of Holocaust victims died in gas chambers. A Mass shooting of Jewish men, women and children is equally genocidal and equally as part of the event known as the Holocaust as a mass gassing. This is not new knowledge - it was proven in the NMT Einzatgruppen trial in 1947 and Hilberg wrote extensively about it all the way back in 1961.

Did her boyfriend mention Jews? Well, apparently this information was mouth to mouth and the key players are all dead now. Elizabeth does mention that both Sophie and Hans mentioned this to her however. In a 1942 leaflet (I think, by Hans), the White Rose mentions that several hundred thousand Polish Jews had been killed.

Revisionists seem to have a major problem in they can only think of gas chambers, but ignore the above facts.

Critical thinking course? I have a bloody AS Level qualification in Critical Thinking already, thankyou.

[been-there]

Did her boyfriend mention Jews? Well, apparently this information was mouth to mouth and the key players are all dead now. Elizabeth does mention that both Sophie and Hans mentioned this to her however. In a 1942 leaflet (I think, by Hans), the White Rose mentions that several hundred thousand Polish Jews had been killed.

If you have access to it, can you quote the exact wording from the source for this, please? Preferably in the vernacular, if possible. If not perhaps a link to a verifiable reference would be great. (Did you read what I discovered about the distorted and altered Willy Peter Resse alleged quote? If not please do.)

Revisionists seem to have a major problem in they can only think of gas chambers, but ignore the above facts.

You appear to have missed what I actually wrote. Barbarity in Russia is not contested. Gas chambers and an apparently telepathically ordered (undocumented) plan to commit genocide of ALL Jews is.

Critical thinking course? I have a bloody AS Level qualification in Critical Thinking already.

Sorry, but I see little evidence of that.

[Bernard]

Did her boyfriend mention Jews? Well, apparently this information was mouth to mouth and the key players are all dead now. Elizabeth does mention that both Sophie and Hans mentioned this to her however. In a 1942 leaflet (I think, by Hans), the White Rose mentions that several hundred thousand Polish Jews had been killed.

If you have access to it, can you quote the exact wording from the source for this, please? Preferably in the vernacular, if possible. If not perhaps a link to a verifiable reference would be great. (Did you read what I discovered about the distorted and altered Willy Peter Resse alleged quote? If not please do.)

Revisionists seem to have a major problem in they can only think of gas chambers, but ignore the above facts.

You appear to have missed what I actually wrote. Barbarity in Russia is not contested. Gas chambers and an apparently telepathically ordered (undocumented) plan to commit genocide of ALL Jews is.

Critical thinking course? I have a bloody AS Level qualification in Critical Thinking already.

Sorry, but I see little evidence of that.

So barbarity in Russia is not contested? WTF does that mean? Does it mean that you agree with Hilberg that the Einsatzgruppen murdered 1.3 million Jewish civilians in a systematic procedure that included roundups in virtually all villages, towns and cities and involved firing squad exterminations in freshly dug pits? Or does barbarity in Russia mean the usual vague been-there dodge that suggests that the Einsatzgruppen shot partisans who sometimes happened to be Jews, or that Jews were prone to partisan affliiation and the murders were merely rational precaution and not based on racial policy? Hilarious that been-there appoints himself as an authority on critical thinking, with the temerity to judge Cerdic

The issue for been-there is not "critical thinking" but any thinking at all as he clumsily tries to dodge, evade contradictions and use ignorance as a shield. It is well known that the Scholls were aware of genocide conducted against the Jews, and you can confirm that yourself with a little internet clicking if the interview with the Scholls' living sister doesn't do it for you.

But you are weaseling out of the real issue here: what does Rollie Freisler and the execution of the Scholls tell us about the values and character of the Nazi regime? The Nazi regime wasn't a series of disconnected episodes and policies, but a unified realization of the worst aspects of government, universally mobilized to exploit via force, threat and murder. Nazism was simply the acting out of a vision that the strong hold a mandate to defeat, exploit, murder and rationalize.

Therefore, been-there is chronically reduced to "tu quoque" in order to suggest that Nazism is nothing more than an expression of human nature. But what about Roland Freisler? been-there has something to say to justify old Rollie?

[Cerdic]

I agree with what Bernard just said.

But yes - Freisler. Or the AHF link I posted discussing Nazi so-called justice. Or the NMT Justice case.

P.S I took English Literature, Religious Studies (Ethics and Philosophy), Politics and Government and Sociology at A Level. The AS in Critical Thinking was taught one period a week over the two years.

[Cerdic]

Heads up to Mike.

A book (cough, cough)
http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/v ... ?id=648489

Leaflets:
https://libcom.org/library/white-rose-documents

Just a study group:
http://www.white-rose-studies.org/

Primary sources:
http://www.white-rose-studies.org/Primary_Sources.html

Other Sources:
http://www.white-rose-studies.org/Other ... urces.html

More on leaflets
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... flets.html
http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... erose.html

Contains letters and so on:
http://www.amazon.com/The-White-Rose-Mu ... 0819560863

White Rose History, Volume I [Academic Version]: Coming Together (January 31 ...
By Ruth Hanna Sachs is several volumes. So Been_there needs to do his own research.

Stuff http://whiterosehistory.com/category/pe ... ie-scholl/

Book: Scholl, Hans, and Sophie Scholl. At the Heart of the White Rose: Letters and Diaries of Hans and Sophie Scholl. New York: Harper & Row, 1987.

And in German by Sophie: http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/v ... ?id=508532

300,000 Polish Jews murdered as of 1942

We do not want to discuss here the question of the Jews, nor do we want in this leaflet to compose a defense or apology. No, only by way of example do we want to site the fact that since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way. Here we see the most frightful crime against human dignity, a crime that is unparalleled in the whole of history. For Jews, too, are human beings - no matter what position we take with respect to the Jewish question - and a crime of this dimension has been perpetrated against human beings. Someone may say that the Jews deserve their fate.

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... flets.html

I also fully recommend a reading of their other writings.

[been-there]

...the real issue here: what does Rollie Freisler and the execution of the Scholls tell us about the values and character of the Nazi regime?

That EXACTLY like Britain, Russia and presumably every other country involved in that conflict, treacherous activity was punished with execution. The German National Socialist regime was no different in any way in this point than those regimes. This is what the Freisler case "tells" me. It also tells me that anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded and in the grip of an irrational partisan viewpoint.

[been-there]

Her boyfriend Fritz's patriotism turned sour on the eastern front. He was also a survivor of the hell of Stalingrad and, unbeknown at the time to Elisabeth, was providing information from 1942 onwards to Sophie and her White Rose comrades about the terrible things being done in Germany's name.
Elisabeth went on: 'In the letters home to Sophie he wrote about how horrified he was at the shooting of Jews. Then there was the architect Manfred Eickemeyer who provided Hans with use of studio in Munich while he was in Poland. Eickmeyer told him about the executions of Jews and the Polish intelligentsia. I knew that from both Hans and Sophie.'

Nothing there about homicidal gas chambers. Did Fritz or Eickmeyer actually write about 'Jews'? Or is this like the Willy Peter Reese deliberate distortion? I am genuinely asking.

Here above is what I asked. I am posting it again as I am just curious if he genuinely mentioned "shooting of Jews" or if he described shooting Jewish partisans and Jewish communities for supporting partisans and as reprisals for partisan activity.
You qouted this, so I am wondering what your source was and if a reference was given.

The links that you provided (from someone else?) did not contain anything on this that I could find.
Basically, you have made a claim. I'm just curious if it can actually be supported.
(N.b. did you read the W.P.Reese example of deception and distortion of sources? Or not?)

"Eickmeyer told him about the executions of Jews and the Polish intelligentsia."
Did Germans execute Polish intelligentsia? I understood that was a Soviet crime blamed on the Germans, e.g. at Katyn.

[Cerdic]

Did Germans execute Polish intelligentsia?

Yes. Here are two starting points at Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_AB-Aktion_in_Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murde ... %C5%9Bnica

The links in my above post were compiled by Mike Curtis (thus "heads up to Mike"). They are background info to the Weisse Rose.

More specifically - I gave the exact link to show that the White Rose, as early as Summer 1942, knew of a mass murder policy against Polish Jews. I also cited an interview with a sister of Sophie and Hans which shows that they knew of shootings of Jews.

The source for the interview is the Daily Mail, let me post the link again http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -1943.html

[been-there]

...I gave the exact link to show that the White Rose, as early as Summer 1942, knew of a mass-murder policy against Polish Jews. I also cited an interview with a sister of Sophie and Hans which shows that they knew of shootings of Jews.

This is where again I think you are demonstrating a lack of critical thinking around the Holocaust subject.
I do not deny that Jews were killed in Soviet territory and in Poland by German forces. You seem to think that I do, despite me repeatedly clarifying this.

I don't think the leaflet excerpt that you quoted, demonstrates knowledge of any alleged planned genocide of all Jews in a "mass-murder policy against Polish Jews". You appear to.

Here again is what the WhiteRose leaflet actually stated:
"...since the conquest of Poland three hundred thousand Jews have been murdered in this country in the most bestial way..."
I myself do not doubt this was an accurate observation. I agree with them and applaud their motives.

Try comparing it with this:
"since the defeat at Dunkirk many hundred thousands of civilians have been murdered by Churchill and Britain in the countries of Germany, Poland and Greece in the most bestial way..."
I think that is also an accurate observation. If an equivalent group had attempted to influence public opinion in Britain in the same way, I would regard them also as equally heroic and noble.
Here is the difference that I suspect exists between us: you wouldn't.