The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

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Nessie
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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:03 am
Nessie wrote:
I have named and quoted Fuchs and Gley and we have discussed in detail Wiernik, Rosenberg and Rajchman.
There is more wrong about Fuchs' testimony than just his misidentification of the Soviet engine but I said that I would give you a mulligan on him.
Meaning you are dodging his testimony because the only supposed fault you can find is his description of the engine, because you struggle to find a V8 Soviet engine.
Gley was in Belzec and his description of a MJB doesn't even come close to what is described at Treblinka.
That is not true. Both used rails on a concrete platform and wood to start the fire.
As far as Rosenberg, here's what the World Jewish Congress has to say about him:
...he witnessed every aspect of the extermination process.
Neither Wiernik, Rajchman nor Rosenberg can even agree on the size or number of graves.
That they vary in the size of graves is down to individual estimations. That they vary in the number will depend on what graves they were referring to in that point of their statement, was it all of them or just the main ones next to the gas chambers, or the ones in the Lazarette?

When witnesses do not collude with each other, such variations are to be expected. it is normal.
As much as you blow smoke and bullshit, you still can't come up with two witnesses who tell a coherent, reliable account of the alleged homicidal events that supposedly took place at Treblinka. None of your alleged eyewitnesses can give a coherent account of how the hermetically sealed gas/vacuum chambers operated, how the mass graves were dug and stockpiled, how whole bodies were exhumed and how the MJB functioned let alone two of them.
I come up with witnesses, I explain why their evidence can be believed and you just dismiss them.
The hermetic sealing is not the issue you think it is. Bomba did not see a vacuum in use, his is hearsay. Rajchman said that an attempt to just pump out the air did not work and he thinks the air was pumped out before the gas was pumped in, which is a mistake. You then equate hearsay and mistakes with lying, which no court or investigation does.
If that's the case, you shouldn't have any problem quoting what Bomba and Rajchman actually said.
That has been done multiple times. I have gone through their words with you and explained what is hearsay and why and why Rajchman said what he said. You just ask to do the same thing again and again and again to stall the debate and avoid other witnesses you struggle to apply your logical fallacies to, or you condemn as liars even though you have never read what they have to say.
Nessie then posts a voluminous list of so-called witnesses but very carefully avoids quoting any of them. Can't weasel dodge when faced with the actual words of the witnesses. Doesn't leave any room for "hyperbole" or "exaggerations" or just some little (heh-heh) "mistakes".
It has been explained to you on numerous occasions that;

1 - few of the witnesses evidence is available online
2 - you cannot dismiss witnesses you have not even read
No they do not. They are not as specific as that. They just say they were at Treblinka. There was more than one camp at Treblinka.
Treblinka I was a penal facility. You don't get sentenced to overnight or even eight days in a prison facility. Oh well, the eeevul Narzis "COULDA" made a mistake and sent those three on to T-I after the rest of the train disembarked at T-II and the three deportees "COULDA" just got confused about where they were. Yeah, that's the ticket, just another one of those fortunate little "mistakes". So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
Where is your evidence TI did not take prisoners for just a few days? You have no evidence they stayed for a few days in TII. But believing without any evidence is standard for denier hoaxters.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:34 am
But believing without any evidence is standard for denier hoaxters.
We do not believe anything; so far any of the witnesses given by the poster does not justify forming a belief of any kind due to the absurdities.


𝖀𝖒𝖆𝖗𝖒𝖊 𝖉𝖆𝖘 𝕷𝖊𝖇𝖊𝖓, 𝖓𝖎𝖈𝖍𝖙 𝖆𝖚𝖘𝖇𝖊𝖚𝖙𝖊𝖓.
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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
Meaning you are dodging his testimony because the only supposed fault you can find is his description of the engine, because you struggle to find a V8 Soviet engine.
I can find NO ~200 hp Soviet V-8 engines. Then we have Fuchs saying that he "repaired" the ignition and a valve. The points in an ignition distributor are "set". Ideally, one has an operating manual that gives such settings as ".018-.020". Valves can be ground or adjusted if you know the setting (again in thousandths) but "repairing" a valve or the ignition? Hardly the words of a master mechanic. Neither would a competent mechanic not differentiate between a stationary power plant and just "an engine". Lots of little things like that make his testimony suspect.
That is not true. Both used rails on a concrete platform and wood to start the fire.
It IS true that Gley was at Belzec. It IS true that he said that the rails were placed on large rocks, not concrete. The capacity of the Belzec MJB was 200 cadavers while the capacity of the Treblinka MJB was 2-3,000 bodies.
That they vary in the size of graves is down to individual estimations. That they vary in the number will depend on what graves they were referring to in that point of their statement, was it all of them or just the main ones next to the gas chambers, or the ones in the Lazarette?

When witnesses do not collude with each other, such variations are to be expected. it is normal.
Uh-huh, Rosenberg "estimated" that the graves were six meters deep and 120 meters long. Wiernik claimed that the graves were 10X25X50 meters and there were five of them while Rajchman said that at least one grave was large enough to contain 250,000 cadavers and there were a total of eleven graves. Normal variation my shiny hiny.
I come up with witnesses, I explain why their evidence can be believed and you just dismiss them.
You name witnesses and excuse their lies. You are being asked to name and quote two (2) witnesses, one of which is a Jew, who give similar and coherent accounts of the homicidal events that allegedly took place at Treblinka II. So far you've done nothing but weasel dodge.

At any rate, Nessie makes it plain that he isn't going to name and quote any two witnesses to the alleged homicidal events that took place at Treblinka II. Neither is he going to give any reason beyond it "COULDA" happened that the three witnesses who left T-II with trainloads of other deportees actually left from the Treblinka penal camp at the sand/gravel quarry. The fact is that Nessie can't produce even two witnesses who give a coherent account of the homicidal events that supposedly took place at Treblinka. No two witnesses tell the same tale and Nessie spends all of his time excusing their lies. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:28 pm
Nessie wrote:
Meaning you are dodging his testimony because the only supposed fault you can find is his description of the engine, because you struggle to find a V8 Soviet engine.
I can find NO ~200 hp Soviet V-8 engines. Then we have Fuchs saying that he "repaired" the ignition and a valve. The points in an ignition distributor are "set". Ideally, one has an operating manual that gives such settings as ".018-.020". Valves can be ground or adjusted if you know the setting (again in thousandths) but "repairing" a valve or the ignition? Hardly the words of a master mechanic. Neither would a competent mechanic not differentiate between a stationary power plant and just "an engine". Lots of little things like that make his testimony suspect.
He was estimating 200hp, he had no way of measure the exact hp. We do not know how long he was a mechanic or what he worked on and he did not give any detail about the repairs. You cannot assess his entire abilities as a mechanic based on one sentence about something he did 24 years before.

You are working to an agenda, where your aim is to dismiss all evidence that goes against your desired narrative. You are not to be trusted.
That is not true. Both used rails on a concrete platform and wood to start the fire.
It IS true that Gley was at Belzec. It IS true that he said that the rails were placed on large rocks, not concrete. The capacity of the Belzec MJB was 200 cadavers while the capacity of the Treblinka MJB was 2-3,000 bodies.
Gley said that 2000 corpses, 300,000 in the first five months were being burnt at Belzec.

You cannot be trusted to accurately remember what a witness said. You previously forgot that I have quoted Gley to you.
That they vary in the size of graves is down to individual estimations. That they vary in the number will depend on what graves they were referring to in that point of their statement, was it all of them or just the main ones next to the gas chambers, or the ones in the Lazarette?

When witnesses do not collude with each other, such variations are to be expected. it is normal.
Uh-huh, Rosenberg "estimated" that the graves were six meters deep and 120 meters long. Wiernik claimed that the graves were 10X25X50 meters and there were five of them while Rajchman said that at least one grave was large enough to contain 250,000 cadavers and there were a total of eleven graves. Normal variation my shiny hiny.
Yes, that is a normal variation to be expected when witnesses are describing huge graves, sometimes many years later.
I come up with witnesses, I explain why their evidence can be believed and you just dismiss them.
You name witnesses and excuse their lies. You are being asked to name and quote two (2) witnesses, one of which is a Jew, who give similar and coherent accounts of the homicidal events that allegedly took place at Treblinka II. So far you've done nothing but weasel dodge.

At any rate, Nessie makes it plain that he isn't going to name and quote any two witnesses to the alleged homicidal events that took place at Treblinka II.
I have named and quoted way more than two already. We have been discussing the evidence of many for years now. Just like I did with Gley, you ask, I name and quote, you then forget and ask again and so on.
Neither is he going to give any reason beyond it "COULDA" happened that the three witnesses who left T-II with trainloads of other deportees actually left from the Treblinka penal camp at the sand/gravel quarry.
I have said that it could be TI or Malkinia, we do not know which and I have given reasons why it was not TII. You have provided no evidence to prove they were at TII.
The fact is that Nessie can't produce even two witnesses who give a coherent account of the homicidal events that supposedly took place at Treblinka. No two witnesses tell the same tale and Nessie spends all of his time excusing their lies. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
You are lying when you say no two witnesses say the same. ALL of the witnesses who worked inside TII say it was a death camp with chambers to kill those inside, who were buried in mass graves and then exhumed and cremated. None say anything about mass showers and it being a transit camp with daily mass departures.

Numerous witnesses give coherent accounts, which contain the usual witness issues of hearsay, exaggeration, hyperbole, mistakes etc. Your method for dismissing them all is flawed and not used by any one other than deniers. You dodge explaining why that is.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

Yep, a veritable barrage of weasel dodges. Five graves, eleven graves, graves that are 120 meters long and graves that will contain 250,000 cadavers? Yep, according to Nessie, a "normal variation". Points and valves are "repaired" not set or adjusted but hey, it was a long time ago.

Yep, Nessie has named and quoted those eyewitnesses already. He already done that except that he hasn't. Just as the witnesses to the trainloads of deportees leaving T-II couldn't have done that because Nessie has decreed that T-II had no accommodations for prisoners. How does he know that? Well, he said so, so there!

You would think that if all the witnesses agreed on what happened at Treblinka Nessie could find at least two who give a coherent and similar account of how it was done. Oh, wait a minute, those guys and there tales of the graves are "normal" and close enough for holyhoax work.

Yep, no need for Nessie to find any witnesses. Besides, he's already done that. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:00 pm
Yep, a veritable barrage of weasel dodges. Five graves, eleven graves, graves that are 120 meters long and graves that will contain 250,000 cadavers? Yep, according to Nessie, a "normal variation". Points and valves are "repaired" not set or adjusted but hey, it was a long time ago.
You never bother with context, such as was it all the graves or just those in one part of the camp? You think all witnesses should be equally good as each other when estimating size. You ignore when the statement was made.

You ignore that Fuchs testimony was translated and we do not have the original. You ignore we do not know how experienced a mechanic he was. You ignore he was speaking about getting an engine running, not fine adjustments to it.
Yep, Nessie has named and quoted those eyewitnesses already. He already done that except that he hasn't. Just as the witnesses to the trainloads of deportees leaving T-II couldn't have done that because Nessie has decreed that T-II had no accommodations for prisoners. How does he know that? Well, he said so, so there!
I go over witnesses with you, repeatedly, in fine detail, pointing out issues and explaining hearsay and where detail is missing.
You would think that if all the witnesses agreed on what happened at Treblinka Nessie could find at least two who give a coherent and similar account of how it was done. Oh, wait a minute, those guys and there tales of the graves are "normal" and close enough for holyhoax work.

Yep, no need for Nessie to find any witnesses. Besides, he's already done that. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
The witnesses do agree on what happened at TII. They ALL agree it was a death camp. The variations in their testimony is normal when there is no collusion between witnesses. Their details vary depending on what stands out in their memory, how long after they gave their statement, how prone they are to hyperbole or repeating hearsay.

I have explained to you on numerous occasions why I accept Wiernik, Rajchman, Fuchs and Gley as prime witnesses. I have explained why I do not use Bomba and I have touched on the other witnesses for whom their is at least some testimony. You then wait, sometimes only a few posts and ask me again.

You then repeatedly dodge my point that you examine witness evidence like no one else does and you cannot explain why you are correct and everyone else is wrong.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

So when are you going to name and quote those two witnesses, Nessie? Oh, that's right, you aren't going to do that. When are you going to quit making excuses for the lies of such as Wiernik, Rajchman, et al? Oh, that's right, you aren't going to do that either. When are you going to quit wailing, "Where did they goooo?" Now that's something that's never going to happen.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:06 pm
So when are you going to name and quote those two witnesses, Nessie? Oh, that's right, you aren't going to do that.
I have repeatedly told you that any of the witnesses listed previously are fine by me. I have repeatedly singled out Wiernik and Fuchs, along with Rajchman and Gley when you moaned about the first two and quoted what is available for you. We have already discussed them at length.

You then ask me again to name witnesses to make it appear I am not naming any witnesses. That is you being dishonest.
When are you going to quit making excuses for the lies of such as Wiernik, Rajchman, et al? Oh, that's right, you aren't going to do that either. When are you going to quit wailing, "Where did they goooo?" Now that's something that's never going to happen.
You agree that witness evidence is the least reliable form of evidence, then you switch and demand total reliability from the witnesses to gassings, whilst excusing the witnesses to transports.

I have explained to you the common issues with witnesses and how to deal with them, but since that spoils your agenda of dismissing witnesses who say things that do not suit you by using logical fallacies, you ignore me.

Of course I am going to ask you about your inability to evidence your claims.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

More frantic weasel dodging from Nessie accompanied by shrieks of, "I already done that". Nessie wrote:
I have repeatedly told you that any of the witnesses listed previously are fine by me.
Wiernik said that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed. He claimed that there were five graves and mentioned no fuel at all for the magic Jew barbeque. Rajchman claimed that the air was pumped out of the gas/vacuum chamber before the engine exhaust was pumped in. He said there were eleven graves with at least one large enough to contain 250,000 cadavers. Blood was flammable as were the cadavers that required only some twigs to set them ablaze so that they could cremate themselves. However, they all agreed that Jews were killed in gas chambers, buried then exhumed and cremated so good enough for holyhoax work.

That's why Nessie refuses to quote the alleged "eyewitnesses" and frantically weasel dodges what they said. He is aware that nobody is going to believe such claptrap.

Why did the USHMM keep stumm about the witnesses who said that they had left Treblinka? Until Hunt uncovered those interviews the hoaxers claimed that only a handful of deportees escaped from Treblinka. Why was the USHMM silent about the deportees that they listed in their own archives as being transported out of Treblinka? Gee, I wonder why? Nessie refuses to quote any of the alleged eyewitnesses. Gee, I wonder why?

The fact is that the holyhoax is a demonstrable scam. None of the hoaxer witnesses stand up to any scrutiny at all. Neither does any of the alleged forensic proofs. Thousands of camps/worksites existed throughout central and eastern Europe and Nessie wails, "Where did they goooo?" as if that were some kind of mystery. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:03 am
More frantic weasel dodging from Nessie accompanied by shrieks of, "I already done that". Nessie wrote:
I have repeatedly told you that any of the witnesses listed previously are fine by me.
Wiernik said that the gas chamber was hermetically sealed.
He said the doors and a roof cap were sealed, which makes sense.
He claimed that there were five graves and mentioned no fuel at all for the magic Jew barbeque. Rajchman claimed that the air was pumped out of the gas/vacuum chamber before the engine exhaust was pumped in. He said there were eleven graves with at least one large enough to contain 250,000 cadavers. Blood was flammable as were the cadavers that required only some twigs to set them ablaze so that they could cremate themselves. However, they all agreed that Jews were killed in gas chambers, buried then exhumed and cremated so good enough for holyhoax work.
All has been explained. It is ironic that you use hyperbole and make mistakes, then you condemn witnesses for doing the same.
That's why Nessie refuses to quote the alleged "eyewitnesses" and frantically weasel dodges what they said. He is aware that nobody is going to believe such claptrap.
I quoted Fuchs and Gley and you dodged them.
Why did the USHMM keep stumm about the witnesses who said that they had left Treblinka? Until Hunt uncovered those interviews the hoaxers claimed that only a handful of deportees escaped from Treblinka. Why was the USHMM silent about the deportees that they listed in their own archives as being transported out of Treblinka? Gee, I wonder why? Nessie refuses to quote any of the alleged eyewitnesses. Gee, I wonder why?
You have just contradicted yourself. The USHMM is not silent, when it lists transports out of Treblinka.
The fact is that the holyhoax is a demonstrable scam.
Using a method unique to denial. No other academic or investigatory method uses the denier method. I wonder why?
None of the hoaxer witnesses stand up to any scrutiny at all. Neither does any of the alleged forensic proofs. Thousands of camps/worksites existed throughout central and eastern Europe and Nessie wails, "Where did they goooo?" as if that were some kind of mystery. So it goes in holyhoax la-la land.
You have decided what you want to promote as fake history and then used logical fallacies to try to ridicule and dismiss the evidence for gassings, whilst ignoring there is no evidence to support the only alternative to gassings.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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