The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

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Nessie
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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:10 pm
If c850,000 left TII, why do the only confirmed witnesses who were at TII, say they left on transports of a few hundred, leaving the rest behind?
This thread is on the credibility of witnesses and this poster uses the same witnesses to bolster their credibility. Quite an astounding piece of circular reasoning.
  • Fred: The witnesses are lying
  • Nessie: they are not because
    the witnesses said so.
The test of witness evidence is corroboration. If a witness is corroborated by independent to them physical, documentary or other witnesses, then it is more than likely that the witness is telling the truth. It is expected that the witnesses will vary in detail and if they say the same thing, then collusion is suspected. When witnesses who are normally considered enemies agree about something, that is strong corroboration that they are telling the truth.

The gassings, graves and pyres at the AR camps are corroborated by

1 - documents and eye witnesses to mass arrivals at the camps
2 - physical remains of buildings and eye witnesses to gassings (not the hearsay of others who were at the camps, but never worked at the gas chambers)
3 - physical remains of disturbed ground and eye witnesses to mass graves
4 - physical remains of cremated bits of bone and eye witnesses to mass pyres and the smell of burning coming from the camps over many months.
5 - aerial photos, ground photos at TII (Kurt Franz) and eye witnesses to the dismantling and planting over of the camps.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:44 pm
The test of witness evidence is corroboration.
Perhaps this poster should learn the difference between corroboration and collusion. None of the witnesses are independent; there is no hard evidence of anything to support a theory of genocide. It is clear this poster believes the fantastic stories of liars but that is his issue.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Turnagain »

Nessie wrote:
That is not what I said.
Nessie continues to refuse to name the lie-witnesses and quote what they said. Just another ration of weasel dodging.
If a witness is not asked to explain in minute detail precisely how the gas chamber was constructed and functioned, then you are not going to have any testimony of that.
Rosenberg was questioned in detail on how the gas chamber worked. He claimed that it was hermetically sealed. Wiernik did write about how the gas chamber functioned, both the old and the new gas chamber. It was hermetically sealed. Bomba and Rajchman both described the gas chamber as functioning as a vacuum chamber. You simply dismiss all such testimony as "hearsay" or "hyperbole" or "exaggeration" or a "mistake". You quote nobody.
You have claimed the pyres at the AR camps could not work due to the lack of sufficient wood used, so no lie from me. The pyres you have described from places such as India are not set up the way witnesses describe the AR camp pyres. The AR camp pyres are like fire pits. Air is drawn in under the grate by the burning embers, which means a heat source of over 1000 degrees under the bodies. That is easily enough to set the bodies alight. The bodies burn due to their fat content and as the water content evapourates.
Right, no lies from Nessie. The magic Jew barbeque (MJB) is described as railroad rails placed on pylons either 50 or 70 cm high. There were 2-3,000 bodies placed on the 30 meter long grate. That would be a pile of bodies at least 12 feet high. Your claim that some kindling placed under the grate would be sufficient fuel to cremate that many bodies is insanely ridiculous. Again, Nessie neither names or quotes any witnesses.
There are Soviet photos of the site, plus Lukaszkiewicz could, as most people can, recognise bits of bone and the smell of cremated remains.
Show a link to the Soviet photos of cremains. Right, Lukaszkiewicz didn't need no steenkin' samples or lab tests. No reasonable person would ask for even a smidgen of actual evidence of what he claimed to have seen. Just because he said that the cremains were on the surface and other witnesses claimed that the cremains were buried. Besides, Lukaszkiewicz said that the graves no longer existed. Gee, what did I get wrong about that, Nessie?
Prove they were at TII and not TI or Malkinia.
That ain't how it works, Nessie. The witnesses claimed to have been in Treblinka II. If you want to claim that they lied or were mistaken then YOU offer the proof of your accusation. Your claim that they didn't describe the Treblinka station is bullshit. Only one (1) witness described the station at Treblinka. Your claim that there were no accommodations for prisoners at Treblinka is just your supposition. You have nothing to support such a claim so claiming that the deportees couldn't have spent more than a few hours in T-II is pure Nessie bullshit.

I said that you named Zabecki as a witness but as for the others...zip, zero, nada. Let's see you name and quote the witnesses to the steam/gas/vacuum chambers. Let's see your witnesses to the MJB. I await your next weasel dodge with bated breath.

PS.
Nessie still refuses to name and quote two (2) witnesses who tell a coherent story of how Treblinka functioned as an extermination facility.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by been-there »

Huntinger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:10 pm
If c850,000 left TII, why do the only confirmed witnesses who were at TII, say they left on transports of a few hundred, leaving the rest behind?
This thread is on the credibility of witnesses and this poster uses the same witnesses to bolster their credibility. Quite an astounding piece of circular reasoning.
  • Fred: The witnesses are lying
  • Nessie: they are not because
    the witnesses said so.
Heh heh!

Yes, excellent summarisation.

Basically the man does not have even rudimentary intelligence. So a useful question to ask might be, why do we allow him to disrupt every topic here at RODOH?
"When people who are honestly mistaken learn the truth,
they either cease being mistaken
or they cease being honest"
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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Turnagain wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:00 pm
Nessie wrote:
That is not what I said.
Nessie continues to refuse to name the lie-witnesses and quote what they said. Just another ration of weasel dodging.
I have named and quoted Fuchs and Gley and we have discussed in detail Wiernik, Rosenberg and Rajchman.
If a witness is not asked to explain in minute detail precisely how the gas chamber was constructed and functioned, then you are not going to have any testimony of that.
Rosenberg was questioned in detail on how the gas chamber worked. He claimed that it was hermetically sealed. Wiernik did write about how the gas chamber functioned, both the old and the new gas chamber. It was hermetically sealed. Bomba and Rajchman both described the gas chamber as functioning as a vacuum chamber. You simply dismiss all such testimony as "hearsay" or "hyperbole" or "exaggeration" or a "mistake". You quote nobody.
The hermetic sealing is not the issue you think it is. Bomba did not see a vacuum in use, his is hearsay. Rajchman said that an attempt to just pump out the air did not work and he thinks the air was pumped out before the gas was pumped in, which is a mistake. You then equate hearsay and mistakes with lying, which no court or investigation does.
You have claimed the pyres at the AR camps could not work due to the lack of sufficient wood used, so no lie from me. The pyres you have described from places such as India are not set up the way witnesses describe the AR camp pyres. The AR camp pyres are like fire pits. Air is drawn in under the grate by the burning embers, which means a heat source of over 1000 degrees under the bodies. That is easily enough to set the bodies alight. The bodies burn due to their fat content and as the water content evapourates.
Right, no lies from Nessie. The magic Jew barbeque (MJB) is described as railroad rails placed on pylons either 50 or 70 cm high. There were 2-3,000 bodies placed on the 30 meter long grate. That would be a pile of bodies at least 12 feet high. Your claim that some kindling placed under the grate would be sufficient fuel to cremate that many bodies is insanely ridiculous. Again, Nessie neither names or quotes any witnesses.
That is not true, I have named and quoted Gley as shown above, which you forgot about, again, and other Nazis are quoted in this source, which I have linked you to on numerous occasions;

http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org ... speak.html
There are Soviet photos of the site, plus Lukaszkiewicz could, as most people can, recognise bits of bone and the smell of cremated remains.
Show a link to the Soviet photos of cremains.
Links to the 1945 photos here;

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/lasttracks.html

You will forget and ask again within another page :roll:
Right, Lukaszkiewicz didn't need no steenkin' samples or lab tests. No reasonable person would ask for even a smidgen of actual evidence of what he claimed to have seen. Just because he said that the cremains were on the surface and other witnesses claimed that the cremains were buried. Besides, Lukaszkiewicz said that the graves no longer existed. Gee, what did I get wrong about that, Nessie?
Your argument is a fallacy. You have no evidence that there are minimal cremains at TII.
Prove they were at TII and not TI or Malkinia.
That ain't how it works, Nessie. The witnesses claimed to have been in Treblinka II.
No they do not. They are not as specific as that. They just say they were at Treblinka. There was more than one camp at Treblinka. If a witness said he was at Auschwitz, the first question should be, which camp? There were three main camps and a number of sub camps including POW, prison and labour camps.
If you want to claim that they lied or were mistaken then YOU offer the proof of your accusation. Your claim that they didn't describe the Treblinka station is bullshit. Only one (1) witness described the station at Treblinka. Your claim that there were no accommodations for prisoners at Treblinka is just your supposition. You have nothing to support such a claim so claiming that the deportees couldn't have spent more than a few hours in T-II is pure Nessie bullshit.
It is your claim they were at TII, prove it.
I said that you named Zabecki as a witness but as for the others...zip, zero, nada. Let's see you name and quote the witnesses to the steam/gas/vacuum chambers. Let's see your witnesses to the MJB. I await your next weasel dodge with bated breath.

PS.
Nessie still refuses to name and quote two (2) witnesses who tell a coherent story of how Treblinka functioned as an extermination facility.
Fuchs, Gley, Wiernik and Rajchman. How many times do you need to be told the same thing?????

I would also add all the witnesses listed for TII here;

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3196

D1) Treblinka Nazis :


1) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf
Camp commander Sobibor and Treblinka
2) Kurt Franz 1964 - Dussledorf
deputy camp commander. 'the doll'
3) Willi Mentz 1964 - Dussledorf
'the gunman of Treblinka' - 'frankenstein'
4) Heinrich Mattes 1964 - Dussledorf
'doctor'
5) Otto von Horn 1964 - Dussledorf
1990's - IvanTerrible
(witness)
6) Erwin Lambert 1964 - Dussledorf
'the flying architect'
7) Franz Suchomel 1964 - Dussledorf
8) August Miete 1964 - Dussledorf
'Angel of death'
9) Gustav Munzberger 1964 - Dussledorf
10) Otto Stadie 1964 - Dussledorf
11) Rudolf Hoess
Auschwitz camp commander
12) Dr Irmfried Erbel arrested jan 48
First commander of camp - replaced for incompetence
13) Erich Fuchs
based at sobibor

D2) Treblinka Ukranian camp staff :

1) Feodor Federenko 1.pre-trial testimony
25.05.76 hartford usa
2.denaturalisation
USA june 78
3. Russian Trial - 1950?
2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-126
3) Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko 1. protokol doprosa -
08.09.44.
2. GARF 7445-2-34 p19
4) Pavel Leleko protokol doprosa -
20.02.45.
5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
6) Prokofij Ryabtsev 1.protokol doprosa -
03.02.65.
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-121
7) Georgij Aleksandr Skidan 1. 26.05.50
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-141

D3) Treblinka - Jewish inmates :

1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
2) Chil Rajchman - 9/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
(Yechiel Reichman) Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
YVT - 03/3816
3) Jerzy Rajgrotski -9/42-8/43 revolt jewish historical institute
1958 no25 106-108
4) Sonia Lewkowicz - 12/42-8/43 revolt Federenko Trial - USA 1978
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
YVT - 03/4181
5) Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
YVT - 03/1846
6) Chaim Sztajer -9/42 - 8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988

7) Pinchas Epstein - 9/42-8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
Eichmann Trial - 1961
8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
9) Eliyahu Rosenberg - 9/42-8/43 revolt Statement Vienna 1947
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Eichmann Trial - 1961
YVA 03/4039
10) Abraham Bomba - 9/42 - 12/42 escaped
11) Abraham Kaszepicki - 8/42-9/42 for 18 days escaped report dec 42
12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
13) David Milgroim - 1942 escaped after a week report made in slovakia 8/43
note - unsure if hearsay OSS? In istanbul recd 1944
14) Leon Finklestein - 7/42 - 8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946

You dodge that they give a mix of hearsay and eye witness testimony based on where in the camp they worked, that not all can be quoted from online sources in full and you pretend that witnesses do not make mistakes, exaggerate or use hyperbole.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

been-there wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 am
.
Basically the man does not have even rudimentary intelligence. So a useful question to ask might be, why do we allow him to disrupt every topic here at RODOH?
Suggestions are given for him to read a particular book as I did, the Gulag Archipelago by AS; this speaks of the deportation of millions of Polish citizens mainly juden to the Soviet interior. Instead of taking the time to peruse the famous works, taking cognizance of the Soviet Atrocities, he is using exactly the same methods as creationists do when they demand evidence of intermediate fossils. Nessie like they fail to see the obvious links, which shows an astounding lack of intelligence. He has not proved certain things existed such as AR camps and yet he uses such non existent historical nomenclature as though they were facts.

It is clear he is trolling and not interesting in developing a new understanding of what happened. There is the execution of 250 thousand plus people, mainly juden at Курапаты, near Minsk, Poles by the NKVD; this person is not interested. There is the execution of 20 thousand or so at Vinnitsia in Ukraine by the same murderers, mainly juden, also refugees; Nessie couldn't care less.

I cannot be bothered any further with this deliberate trolling.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

Nessie wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:27 am
I would also add all the witnesses listed for TII here;
Where does this poster find all these Charlatans and those whose knowledge of reality is on par with his own.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

Huntinger wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:37 am
been-there wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 am
.
Basically the man does not have even rudimentary intelligence. So a useful question to ask might be, why do we allow him to disrupt every topic here at RODOH?
Suggestions are given for him to read a particular book as I did, the Gulag Archipelago by AS; this speaks of the deportation of millions of Polish citizens mainly juden to the Soviet interior. Instead of taking the time to peruse the famous works, taking cognizance of the Soviet Atrocities, he is using exactly the same methods as creationists do when they demand evidence of intermediate fossils. Nessie like they fail to see the obvious links, which shows an astounding lack of intelligence. He has not proved certain things existed such as AR camps and yet he uses such non existent historical nomenclature as though they were facts.

It is clear he is trolling and not interesting in developing a new understanding of what happened. There is the execution of 250 thousand plus people, mainly juden at Курапаты, near Minsk, Poles by the NKVD; this person is not interested. There is the execution of 20 thousand or so at Vinnitsia in Ukraine by the same murderers, mainly juden, also refugees; Nessie couldn't care less.

I cannot be bothered any further with this deliberate trolling.
You are ignoring the Jews under Nazi custody 1939 to 1945. You are trying to suggest that the vast majority of Jews escaped the Nazis and fled to the SU by only looking at those who had either escaped or were never in Nazi controlled territory.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Nessie »

been-there wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:34 am
Huntinger wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:14 pm
Nessie wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:10 pm
If c850,000 left TII, why do the only confirmed witnesses who were at TII, say they left on transports of a few hundred, leaving the rest behind?
This thread is on the credibility of witnesses and this poster uses the same witnesses to bolster their credibility. Quite an astounding piece of circular reasoning.
  • Fred: The witnesses are lying
  • Nessie: they are not because
    the witnesses said so.
Heh heh!

Yes, excellent summarisation.

Basically the man does not have even rudimentary intelligence. So a useful question to ask might be, why do we allow him to disrupt every topic here at RODOH?
No it is an unintelligent dishonest summation. I test witness evidence with corroboration and examine it to see what is eye witness evidence and what is hearsay. That way, the corroborated eye witness evidence can be identified as it is the most reliable form of evidence.

Your method of examining witness evidence for reliability is the very unreliable method of you decide first what you want to believe, then you apply arguments from incredulity and ignorance to any witness who says something you want to dismiss. No academic or investigatory technique uses that method because it is dishonest and unreliable.
Consistency and standards in evidencing viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2721#p87772
My actual argument viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2834

Scott - On a side note, this forum is turning into a joke with the vicious attacks--and completely unnecessary vitriol--that everybody is making upon each other.

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Re: The 'Achilles heel' of 'THE holocaust' - witnesses!

Post by Huntinger »

You are trying to suggest that the vast majority of Jews escaped the Nazis and fled to the SU by only looking at those who had either escaped or were never in Nazi controlled territory.
Many fled through perceived fear of potential pogroms; a huge amount were evicted; this is spelled out clearly by Korherr.
Korherr said:
Between 1937 and the beginning of 1943, the number of Jews in Europe is likely to have declined by an estimated 4 million, in part through emigration, in part through excess mortality of the Jews in central and western Europe, in part through the evacuations especially in the völkisch stronger eastern territories, which are calculated here as departure.
Many were sent into RKU and Ostland, evidenced through the scattered reports that remain, after that report was written. Most like Dr Eddy de Wind from the Netherlands wrote; hundred and hundreds of thousands worked in ammunition industries in such places like Buna. Dr de Wind is jüdische and speaks none of the nonsense of his experiences at Auschwitz as others have. His book is very similar to that reported by Pierre Bergin reporting similar situations. One can gather from all of these reports that these people were scattered everywhere; the assumption quite wrongly is that all of these people were processed at a few places.
It was also mentioned more than once there were over 450 konzentrationslager in the GG alone, which could cater for millions of people, not just the 6 or 7 known by the poster above. This shows profound ignorance to discuss something with a dearth of knowledge.

I am interested in credible witnesses like Pierre and Dr de Wind, not Charlatans with the same mentality as the poster above. Yad Vashem in their article on Vinnetsia says absolutely nothing on the NKVD atrocities on der Juden but only on what is allegedly committed by the Germans. I doubt if those atrocities by the Reich occurred. This shows the credibility of der Jüdische charlatans called Yad Vashem.
Биківнянські могили is also a site with more NKVD atrocities, with up to two hundred thousand murdered, many Poles und juden.
These same people over ran Poland using the same terror techniques of mass murder and summary execution. Juden like Yad Vashem and the poster Nessie couldn't care less; these are real crimes, with real mass graves, not imaginary wannabe graves that do not exist at places like Treblinka and Sobibor.

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