Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Discuss the alleged Nazi genocide or other wartime atrocities without fear of censorship. No bullying of fellow posters is allowed at RODOH. If you can't be civil, please address the argument and not the participants. Do not use disparaging alterations of the user-names of other RODOH posters or their family members. Failure to heed warnings from Moderators will result in a 24 hour ban (or longer if necessary).
Post Reply
Bob
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 pm
Contact:

Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Bob »

As requested, a thread has been opened. Exterminationists are welcomed to show alleged holes in Krematorium I allegedly used for introduction of Zyklon B at Auschwitz during the WW2. There are no such holes as can everybody can check in the still existing ceiling and this physical evidence thus categorically refutes alleged homicidal gassings.

SUPPORT RODOH!
Would you like to financially contribute to the upkeep of RODOH? Please kindly contact Scott Smith ([email protected]). Any and all contributions are welcome!


Ilol'd
Posts: 409
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:55 am
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Ilol'd »

No openings/introduction chimneys are visible on the aerial photographs either.

Bob
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Bob »

For your information, local exterminationist Muehlenkamp, who requested the thread has dodged it as expected by me.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Roberto »

Bob wrote:For your information, local exterminationist Muehlenkamp, who requested the thread has dodged it as expected by me.
Bob must be concerned that his fellow "Revisionist" true believers are not satisfied with his performance in promoting the faith on this forum, judging by his funny footnote exercises and his feeling compelled to provide "information" like the above.

This information, by the way, omits the following questions in the post that Bob must be referring to:
Bob wrote:Let´s give it a try again and let see is RM will be able to answer a simple request in less than some month and half this time.
Is that after Bob has explained and substantiated his claim that there are "no such holes as can everybody can check in the still existing ceiling", or after Bob has explained what the Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung is supposed to have been in his book, and what it is supposed to have served for in Leichenkeller 2 of Krema II?

And why Krema I? I didn't know they used a Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung there.
The remarks about the Drahtnetzeinschiebevorrichtung are related to the fact that Bob's idea of a new thread came up in the course of a discussion about introduction of Zyklon B in the underground gas chambers of crematoria II and III.

The remark about Bob's substantiating his claim that the "no such holes as can everybody can check in the still existing ceiling" (of reconstructed Krema I) is related to the fact that this picture, as I understand it, shows at least the "chimneys" over the openings in the roof reintroduced in post-war reconstruction.

So what exactly does Bob means by "no such holes as can everybody can check in the still existing ceiling"?
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Bob
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Bob »

So the whole RM´s argumentation is based on showing a picture of chimneys which are as he himself admits - post war feature and thus not original.

But where are the original holes? RM does not know, no holes, thus RM has serious problem refuting his nonsenses. Period.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Roberto »

Bob wrote:So the whole RM´s argumentation is based on showing a picture of chimneys which are as he himself admits - post war feature and thus not original.

But where are the original holes? RM does not know, no holes, thus RM has serious problem refuting his nonsenses. Period.
In their paper The Ruins of the Gas Chambers: A Forensic Investigation of Crematoriums at Auschwitz I and Auschwitz-Birkenau, Daniel Keren, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry W. Mazal wrote the following as concerns the holes in the roof of Krema I:
In late 1944 the gas chamber, which was no longer being used for killing, was converted into an air-raid shelter for the SS.26 The conversion consisted mainly of sealing the Zyklon insertion holes, and adding dividing walls in the chamber to confine the effect of an exploding bomb. In addition, two small air vents were added (these are not to be confused with the larger air vents of the adjacent cremation room). After the war, the chamber was restored to appear as it did when it was used for homicidal gassing; the dividing walls were removed, and four of the Zyklon insertion holes were reopened.

The purpose of this section is to correct some common misconceptions about the Crematorium I gas chamber, specifically, about the location of the Zyklon holes. Deniers often claim that these holes are "post-war fabrication." A key, but rarely cited, testimony is the account provided by the Pole Adam Zlobnicki: "I remember well that the introduction holes for Zyklon B, which are situated on the roof of the crematory, were also reconstructed in 1946/47. Those who reconstructed them had an easy task because the erstwhile introduction holes had left distinct traces. . . . Thus, they constructed in the same places again the openings for the little chimneys."27 The "little chimneys" to which the witness refers are the low wooden structures built around the holes through which the Zyklon was poured; they were also reconstructed on the basis of postwar testimony (Figure 29).

Figure 27 is a schematic drawing of the gas chamber's roof, with Z1-Z5 marking the location of five Zyklon holes, and A1-A2 marking the location of the two aforementioned air vents. As we shall demonstrate, Z2-Z5 were reopened in the restoration process described by the witness Zlobnicki, while Z1 remained sealed. The roof has been covered since 1945 with heavy tar paper but the location of Z1 can be identified inside the chamber by the sealing marks, as shown in Figure 31. Before the Zyklon holes were re-opened, an important photograph of the crematorium roof was taken (Figure 28). This image shows the location of four of the sealed Zyklon holes, and allows a comparison of them with the location of the restored holes.

The reader can see how the roof appears today in Figure 29. Figures 30 depicts details from the current photograph (a) and the pre-restoration photograph (b) side by side.

It is easy to reconstruct the exact location of the Zyklon hole Z1 in the chamber's interior: it lies at the intersection of the straight line connecting Z2 and Z3, and the straight line perpendicular to the roof's longitudinal edge and passing through Z4 (see Figures 27 and 28). Exactly at this location there are clear signs of a square hole that was sealed (Figure 31). At two other locations holes were sealed, but these were circular ventilation openings (Figures 32).28

Finally, in order to test Zlobnicki's testimony we have tried to locate a position from which the photograph of the roof (Figure 28) aligns well with the measurements of the restored holes as well as the air vents A1 and A2 and the original Z1. This was achieved by simulating the mathematical model of a camera29 and using an optimization program that sought the best match of certain landmarks in the photo with their corresponding locations in the mathematical models. The landmarks, depicted in Figure 33, are the most discernable corners of Z1-Z4 and A1 and A2. We have measured the corresponding locations of these landmarks on the roof in its present condition, using a measuring tape. The optimization program recovered an excellent match; the locations of the model's landmarks are marked by the small red

Image

Figure 34: Projection of a world point onto its image in the camera/eye. In reality the image plane is located behind the optical center; however it is customary to draw it in front of the image plane to avoid reversing the order of real world objects.

squares, and they correspond very well with the photograph. The location of Z5 corresponds to the red square outside the photo (to the left) and indeed it is not visible in the photo (see also Figure 30). The photographer's location was determined to be at the following location, compared to the corner landmark of Z4, with a Cartesian coordinate system aligned with the roof, with its x-axis along the roof's horizontal (width) axis, y-axis along the longitudinal side of the roof, and the z-axis pointing upwards. Relative to this coordinate system, the recovered location of the photographer was at (-2.675, -5.575, 0.75 m), and the roof angles with respect to the camera's plane were 0.725 at the x-y direction, and 0.175 at the y-z direction (angles in radians). This means that the photographer was standing to the left and slightly to the front of the roof corner (see Figure 27), on the sloping earth embankment, which accounts for the low value of the z coordinate (possibly the photographer was also kneeling, or the camera was mounted on a tripod).
This rendering shows an excellent fit between the original and existing holes in the roof, proving that Zlobnicki's testimony is indeed accurate; the Zyklon holes existed in the roof, were sealed when the chamber was converted to an air-raid shelter, and (save for Z1) were reopened during the restoration process.
There isn't much to be added to the above. The original holes are no longer visible today, but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony, a photograph and mathematical calculations. These elements corroborate the various eyewitness testimonies and the use to which they were put.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Bob
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Bob »

Roberto wrote:There isn't much to be added to the above. The original holes are no longer visible today, but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony, a photograph and mathematical calculations. These elements corroborate the various eyewitness testimonies and the use to which they were put.
After weeks of dodging, RM is reduced to refuted repetitions, refuted here, pp. 94ff., here is my personal version of Mattogno´s refutation:
The authors affirm that there were originally five holes for the introduction of the Zyklon B in the roof of the crematorium, a figure which is at odds with all the testimonies. On the photograph in question, they identify the traces of a fourth dark spot in the roofing felt on the roof of the crematorium (Img. 21), which had obviously escaped J.-C. Pressac’s attention. They then state that four of the alleged five holes for the introduction of Zyklon B, which the Poles had made in the post-war years, were sunk exactly where the aforementioned dark spots were located, and labelled them Z3 [= 3 in my Img. 21], Z2 [= 2] and Z4 [ = 4]; dark spot Z1 [= 1] was not reopened, according to the authors, whereas dark spot Z5, which they place between Z3 and Z2, does, in fact, not appear on the photograph.

The authors claim to have identified the traces of an alleged opening Z1 on the ceiling of the morgue, and provide a photograph of it (Img. 16). What we are dealing with here are traces of the opening that I have designated #2 which, however, was not square, as the authors claim, but round, and was actually not at the location of Z1 but 2 m from it toward shaft B (see Img. 6, Img. 7, Img. 8, Img. 22).

In any case, the authors themselves deny that the traces of openings #3 and #4 correspond to the dark spots in the photograph published by J.-C. Pressac, because the former have a round shape: “At two other locations holes were sealed, but these were circular ventilation openings.”

Dark spot Z1 was located practically on the perpendicular of dark spot Z4, as results from the extension of the respective sides ( Img. 21), and was thus on the prolongation of the axis A-B in front of the present opening D (see see Img. 6, Img. 7, Img. 8). In this area there is no trace of any walled-up opening in the ceiling of the morgue.

Hence, no opening in the roof of the morgue – current or former – corresponds to dark spot Z1. But then, why should dark spots Z2, Z3, and Z4 correspond to openings? As a matter of fact, spot Z2 is too far away from ventilation shaft S2 to be identical with today’s shaft “B,” and spot Z3 is too close to ventilation shaft S1 – probably located over the washing room – to be identical with today’s shaft “A.” Spot Z4, on the other hand, appears to be too far away from the wall to be identical with today’s shaft “D,” which is only 82 cm away from the wall.

The authors claim that, when the crematorium was converted into an airraid shelter, the alleged Zyklon B introduction openings were sealed again,but this assertion, which they owe to Franciszek Piper,[30] has no documentary basis and is disproved by the cost estimate of November 2, 1944, mentioned above, which not only does not speak of any kind of closing up of holes, but specifies the creation of five openings in walls, i.e. in the ceiling, as I have pointed out above. If there would have been holes already in the roof, the SS would have used those instead of weakening the roof even further by adding more holes.
Roberto wrote:There isn't much to be added to the above. The original holes are no longer visible today, but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony, a photograph and mathematical calculations.
A lie since precisely RM´s own source is arguing that today post war openings are at original locations which is simply impossible as clearly pointed out by Mattogno, here again the point expressed with the use of Pressac plan (my picture - red is original room, green is post war room, purple line divides the original room into two), openings were created in the way which make sense for post war appearance of the room whereas completely wrong for the original room, Mattogno:
The four shafts reconstructed by the Poles are arranged as shown in my drawing (Img. 8). They are grouped in two parallel pairs along the internal (A-B) and the external (C-D) walls of the morgue. Shafts C and D are 82 cm from the outer wall, shaft A is 90 cm and shaft B 85 cm from the inner wall. Shafts A-B are 6.30 m and shafts C and D 8.30 m apart from each other respectively. The four shafts thus form the vertices of an irregular parallelogram having a height of 2.40 meters.

What is interesting here is that in the present state of the room shaft D stands 5.10 m from the wall with the entrance from the outside, shaft C stands 7.10 m from the opposite wall, which separated the washing room from the laying-out room, shaft B stands 7.10 m from the wall of the little vestibule near the entrance and shaft A stands 5.10 m from the opposite wall.

Such an arrangement makes sense only within the framework of the present state of the morgue. It is, in fact, clear that the position of the shafts was based on their distance from the short, transverse walls of the present room by rationally subdividing the available distance of some 21.3 meters: thus shafts A and D were placed at 5.10 m, shafts B and C at 7.10 m from the nearest wall. The distance for shaft B was, curiously, not based on the rear wall, but on the partition of the little vestibule, and this caused shaft B to be moved back by 2 m with respect to shaft D. But at the time of the alleged original construction of the shafts of the morgue, the little vestibule did not exist, whereas there was at that time a partition between the washing room and the morgue. Thus, this arrangement of the shafts makes sense only for the present state of the crematorium and therefore cannot be original.
Roberto wrote:but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony
Again a lie as number 5 is not asserted by any so called witnesses, this number is thus in fact contradicted, the very opposite of what RM is claiming by his lying.

So again, holes are missing and RM has serious problem, no holes, no gassing.

Roberto
Posts: 3734
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:45 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Roberto »

Bob wrote:
Roberto wrote:There isn't much to be added to the above. The original holes are no longer visible today, but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony, a photograph and mathematical calculations. These elements corroborate the various eyewitness testimonies and the use to which they were put.
RM reduced to refuted repetitions, refuted here, pp. 94ff., here is my personal version of Mattogno´s refutation:
The authors affirm that there were originally five holes for the introduction of the Zyklon B in the roof of the crematorium, a figure which is at odds with all the testimonies. On the photograph in question, they identify the traces of a fourth dark spot in the roofing felt on the roof of the crematorium (Img. 21), which had obviously escaped J.-C. Pressac’s attention. They then state that four of the alleged five holes for the introduction of Zyklon B, which the Poles had made in the post-war years, were sunk exactly where the aforementioned dark spots were located, and labelled them Z3 [= 3 in my Img. 21], Z2 [= 2] and Z4 [ = 4]; dark spot Z1 [= 1] was not reopened, according to the authors, whereas dark spot Z5, which they place between Z3 and Z2, does, in fact, not appear on the photograph.
The authors claim to have identified the traces of an alleged opening Z1 on the ceiling of the morgue, and provide a photograph of it (Img. 16). What we are dealing with here are traces of the opening that I have designated #2 which, however, was not square, as the authors claim, but round, and was actually not at the location of Z1 but 2 m from it toward shaft B (see Img. 6, 7, 8, 22).

In any case, the authors themselves deny that the traces of openings #3 and #4 correspond to the dark spots in the photograph published by J.-C. Pressac, because the former have a round shape: “At two other locations holes were sealed, but these were circular ventilation openings.”

Dark spot Z1 was located practically on the perpendicular of dark spot Z4, as results from the extension of the respective sides (Img. 21), and was thus on the prolongation of the axis A-B in front of the present opening D (see Img. 6, 7, 8). In this area there is no trace of any walled-up opening in the ceiling of the morgue.

Hence, no opening in the roof of the morgue – current or former – corresponds to dark spot Z1. But then, why should dark spots Z2, Z3, and Z4 correspond to openings? As a matter of fact, spot Z2 is too far away from ventilation shaft S2 to be identical with today’s shaft “B,” and spot Z3 is too close to ventilation shaft S1 – probably located over the washing room – to be identical with today’s shaft “A.” Spot Z4, on the other hand, appears to be too far away from the wall to be identical with today’s shaft “D,” which is only 82 cm away from the wall.

The authors claim that, when the crematorium was converted into an airraid shelter, the alleged Zyklon B introduction openings were sealed again,but this assertion, which they owe to Franciszek Piper,[30] has no documentary basis and is disproved by the cost estimate of November 2, 1944, mentioned above, which not only does not speak of any kind of closing up of holes, but specifies the creation of five openings in walls, i.e. in the ceiling, as I have pointed out above. If there would have been holes already in the roof, the SS would have used those instead of weakening the roof even further by adding more holes.
Roberto wrote:The original holes are no longer visible today
A lie since precisely RM´s own source is arguing that today post war openings are at original locations which is simply impossible as clearly pointed out by Mattogno, here again the point expressed with the use of Pressac plan (my picture - red is original room, green is post war room, purple line divides the original room into two), openings were created in the way which make sense for post war appearance of the room whereas completely wrong for the original room, Mattogno:
The four shafts reconstructed by the Poles are arranged as shown in my drawing (Img. 8). They are grouped in two parallel pairs along the internal (A-B) and the external (C-D) walls of the morgue. Shafts C and D are 82 cm from the outer wall, shaft A is 90 cm and shaft B 85 cm from the inner wall. Shafts A-B are 6.30 m and shafts C and D 8.30 m apart from each other respectively. The four shafts thus form the vertices of an irregular parallelogram having a height of 2.40 meters.

What is interesting here is that in the present state of the room shaft D stands 5.10 m from the wall with the entrance from the outside, shaft C stands 7.10 m from the opposite wall, which separated the washing room from the laying-out room, shaft B stands 7.10 m from the wall of the little vestibule near the entrance and shaft A stands 5.10 m from the opposite wall.

Such an arrangement makes sense only within the framework of the present state of the morgue. It is, in fact, clear that the position of the shafts was based on their distance from the short, transverse walls of the present room by rationally subdividing the available distance of some 21.3 meters: thus shafts A and D were placed at 5.10 m, shafts B and C at 7.10 m from the nearest wall. The distance for shaft B was, curiously, not based on the rear wall, but on the partition of the little vestibule, and this caused shaft B to be moved back by 2 m with respect to shaft D. But at the time of the alleged original construction of the shafts of the morgue, the little vestibule did not exist, whereas there was at that time a partition between the washing room and the morgue. Thus, this arrangement of the shafts makes sense only for the present state of the crematorium and therefore cannot be original.
Roberto wrote:but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony
Again a lie as number 5 is not asserted by any so called witnesses, this number is thus in fact contradicted, the very opposite of what RM is claiming by his lying.

So again, holes are missing and RM has serious problem, no holes, no gassing.
Why, look what we have here - a knee jerk reaction from our chief hysteric, also known as Mr. "Lie" among other epithets, for his infantile habit of calling statements he disagrees with or considers incorrect a "lie".

Note the distinct element of self-projection in the fellow's "lie" accusations, as he takes a statement of mine out of context and calls the detached part a "lie". The context of the quote-mined statement reads as follows:
The original holes are no longer visible today, but their former location can be established on hand of an eyewitness testimony, a photograph and mathematical calculations.


This is what I gathered from reading what Keren et al wrote. You may disagree with what they wrote, you may argue that I misunderstood what they wrote, or you may do both. But this persistent "lie" - yelling just reveals a self-projecting dishonesty and an infantile mind. If Bob hasn't yet realized that such obnoxious behavior only serves to show our impartial readers what obnoxious creatures populate "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land, that's his problem.

Anyway, I've given my friend some work to do over the weekend, while I enjoy the same and then turn my attention to the more important simians, Bob's gurus MGK. Before I go, here's a piece of well-meaning advice for my old friend Bob: try to cut on those silly "lying", "dodging", "incompetent", "dilletante", "forger", "contradicting", "refuted", etc. catchwords, accusations and insults. Don't bore the hell out of anyone - other than perhaps your "folks" - who bothers to read your BS.
Denial of generally known historical facts should not be punishable. For those who maintain, for instance, that Germany did not take part in World War I or that Adenauer fought at Issus in 333, their own stupidity is punishment enough. The same should apply to the denial of the horrors and crimes of the recent German past.
~ A German jurist by the name of Baumann in the German juridical magazine NJW, quoted in: Bailer-Galanda/Benz/Neugebauer (ed.), Die Auschwitzleugner, Berlin 1996, page 261 (my translation).

Bob
Posts: 3404
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by Bob »

Accusations were true as usual as apparent from RM´s latest performance. Looking forward to finally see the locations of alleged holes, let´s give him another several weeks to figure out this tremendous task.

User avatar
theblackrabbitofinlé
Posts: 2094
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Krematorium I and alleged Zyklon B openings

Post by theblackrabbitofinlé »

The Ruins of the Gas Chambers: A Forensic Investigation of Crematoriums at Auschwitz I and Auschwitz-Birkenau by Keren et al.

A report truly in the spirit of The Truth About Katyn: Report of Special Commission for Ascertaining and Investigating the Circumstances of the Shooting of Polish Officer Prisoners by the German-Fascist Invaders in the Katyn Forest.

You know full well Roberto, because I've told you before, that this report on their "forensic investigation" deliberately excluded 50% of the photographs of Krema II's Leichenkeller I because they could not offer a plausible explanation for the absence of holes, chimneys or coverings for such on the roof.
Omission of Key Evidence. This fallacy consists in constructing an argument that fails to include some of the key evidence that is critical to the support of the conclusion.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/e/sean_c_rhoa ... lacy41.htm
Nevertheless, Roberto persists in citing Keren el al's report fully aware of it's mendacious nature.

Image
We just wish to point out to the court that is not a signed sworn statement of Dr. Bender but merely a translation of an alleged or purported statement of Dr. Bender, the original of which, like many other things, is not to be found today.
- Defence counsel, Dachau trial, 7 August 1947

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 24 guests